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CrimsonKero
Jill of all trades.
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I do animation, music, games, art, the whole lot.
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Currently working on "Project Mystopia", the biggest game on Newgrounds, probably.
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PFP: @TheShokBlok
Banner: @Porter
C.S. @CrimsonKero

Age 22, Female (any%)

Quad-Portal Creator

suburban AU

Joined on 8/20/20

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Comments

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PLJerry

This entire situation is messed up, also good thing that she archive so we can see this.
I hope that Tom Fulp give a comment about this situation.

DioShiba

It would be fair to point out that on multiple occasions prior to this whole shitshow, many people already began to tire from the discussions on Ai.

I still maintain my stance that there isn't any innocent side and I did state it in a now deleted comment that, if there is a consistent record of actual misconduct and abuse of power, then thats grounds for removal of a mod. At the same time, if the users calling for a mod to be removed from staff are going to drag users into their debates and insult anyone they disagree with on it over percieved wrongs, people are going to start calling bullshit and move on.

That said, Newgrounds =/= the Government.

Pretty sure what was pointed out in chat rules regarding free speech and the following comic very much applies in this situation: https://xkcd.com/1357/

CrimsonKero

If you want to be technical, nobody at Stonewall was "innocent" either, given there were mobsters involved. Is that the hill you want to die on?

Kolumbo

bruh

VictorVonVice

I think the meme comic is fine as long as you don't directly refer to the mod in question, otherwise, people who don't understand can just see it as a silly dinosaur getting things wrong.

Dieswyx

@DioShiba there might not be an innocent side here, but there's abuse of power from a mod that shouldn't be part of the staff 🤷‍♂️

Simoes1000

This has to stop. Tomfulp needs to do something.

KittyhawkMontrose

Thank you for this powerful post. I really appreciate you standing with us despite our battles in the past. The Newgrounds leadership should recognize this alliance that's being formed and realize that the mod has to go.

CrimsonKero

Go Team Montrose!

alsoknownas1

First, I just want to thank Crimson for such an eloquent and thorough explainer. Even if we hadn't buried the hatchet, I appreciate that this is bigger than the two of us.

I won't evoke sexual repression that's not mine to speak to, but the mechanism she refers to is exactly my concern beyond my own skin. When covert means are used to enforce a "status quo" in a way that's hidden to the majority it deprives the group of the ability to change or evolve. Everyone thinks that they're in the minority and don't raise a stink. Worse, what the hidden keepers of the "status quo" think is the majority position can become completely unmoored in light of no feedback mechanism. Online this almost always leads to a slow and then sudden exodus when enough people no longer feel in touch with the fake culture and consensus that's being projected. I don't want NG to be stack overflowed.

@JoeSomebody2's comments in @DioShiba's thread was beyond civil and measured, yet into the memory hole it had to go. @DioShiba keeps asking for evidence of crime, but that's all his entire thread is: evidence of fraud against the NG audience. Maybe you hate NSFW and you hate my guts for not letting this go, but the fact of the matter is we have ample evidence that his thread is missing several voices (including his own on several occasions!) and yet, if you're unaware of this drama and just casually browsed it you would have no idea. What else in the NG forums is completely manipulated? Is NSFW the most popular thing ever but we don't know? Is half of NG avowed socialist and we just don't know? Sure, NG is not the government so we don't have a "right" to free speech, but the health of the community still depends on it.

CrimsonKero (Updated )

If NSFW content is to be supressed, it should at the very least be openly understood why it's being supressed and how it's justifiable. (examples: the character is underaged, it targets real people, etc.)

Can't exactly do that if the moderator is acting super shady and refuses to elaborate.
If so powerful, why leave?

DioShiba

@CrimsonKero @Dieswyx if we're being honest. Besides this situation alone has there been any other decisions that Turkey has made that have been documented that are unrelated to this all together?

Because right now that's not looking like the case and putting aside why I initially said no one is innocent when the initial thread that Kittyhawk made and I listed observations to why that tgread got locked and y'all fixating on Turkey.

DocDiegO

I was starting to getting worry about the behavior of certain mods from a while. good to see that people is expressing their discontent. specially with how they managed the AI one, which, you might expected to leave it alone due to Newgrounds stance about Generative Machine Learning content.

Dieswyx

@DioShiba you are blinder than me, dude... or I guess you are kind of dumb or something. Sucking Turkey's balls won't get you anywhere. 🤦‍♂️

JoeSomebody2

@DioShiba Your appropriation of the xkcd comics rhetoric is vulgar, along with your continued stance about how no wrongdoing is documented, while also acknowledging your own contributions were DELETED. You're being a coward. This isn't how you moderate discussion. Why you won't just say that is frustrating as hell. :o

bergmik

please explain.

CrimsonKero

This whole post is explaining, especially section 3.

bergmik

@CrimsonKero i don't understand.

CrimsonKero

Didn't read it?

DioShiba

@Dieswyx well maybe i'm not seeing consistent behavior proving it despite all the talk.

Either you people need to make a master call out post showing several instances showing where Turkey actually abused his powers consistently to warrant a demotion, otherwise this is a show to me with a massive nothing burger where people are being entitled.

@JoeSomebody2 and its comments like yours that are making me less inclined to take a side.

Cosmiccookie2000

I appreciate you including me.

To give my two cents, yes I am an artist, while I'll admit my art is far from perfect.

I haven't really broke any rules im aware of, I haven't even been uploaded any art as of late just because lack of motivation with personal stuff. https://www.newgrounds.com/art/ I have re-upload the drawing. But before that, the drawing have been up for at least a month if not weeks

Even then I've been pruned before as a mod said it was due to my work not exactly being art portal worthy, but after they notice an increase in quality, they would remove it. Even then I've been able to post stuff with no problem or interference with a mod so to happen now is a little sketchy.

Even taking account of the people I've scouted , non of them have done any unprofessional in my eyes.

Outside of a few being inactive, that isn't really enough for it to be taken away.

Dungeonation

Why are you comparing website moderation to the Stonewall riots

CrimsonKero

Because they were both carried out unjustly and both led to public outcry.

TomFulp

Outside events of this past week made it difficult to engage with this but here is my general impression of this situation.

Magianfellow created a Nude Studies thread in the art forum, which was promptly locked by TurkeyOnAStick as being a repeat of the adult art thread. Magianfellow messaged me about it and I talked to TurkeyOnAStick, who expressed his concerns but went ahead and unlocked the thread.

In the days that followed, KittyhawkMontrose noticed her post kept being removed by a mod, with no notification as to why. TurkeyOnAStick acknowledged the removals, saying Kittyhawk’s post was removed due to exaggerated anatomy that he felt didn’t fit the theme of artistic nude studies, going back to his concerns that this thread would be a repeat of the adult art thread.

Around the same time, Kittyhawk’s husband alsoknownas1 noticed some posts being removed from a thread about AI. TurkeyOnAStick explained that Andalsoknownas1’s post was removed due to veering off-topic into something that had already been discussed a lot in other threads.

My feelings are that TurkeyOnAStick was likely micro-managing conversations that could have been left alone, although his reasoning makes sense in the context of trying to keep threads on track of their intended purpose. It would have been ideal if explanations were given up-front. I will say that alsoknownas1 has a reputation for exhausting, drawn out arguments so I can sense the hesitation in that particular case.

KittyhawkMontrose and alsoknownas1 never messaged me about these concerns but they did make a number of call-out posts on Twitter, trying to shame and brigade me while I was at PAX. There are people who totally hate NG but they at least message me directly with their plans to dismember me. Instead I got Tweets like this one:

https://www.newgrounds.com/dump/item/dab088b6689a60f9d57250f64b8baf51

It has been hard for me to remain unbiased after these tweets, as they have given me a gut feeling about KittyhawkMontrose and alsoknownas1 that I haven’t been able to shake, even a week later.

I acknowledge the moderation felt heavy handed and we don’t have great tools to make it more clear when moderation has happened. I don’t think it was necessary to remove the comic about these events, although the comic did overlook the nuance of the moderator’s reasoning and can be viewed as targeted harassment, along with the contest KittyhawkMontrose is now hosting to encourage more pieces like this.

NG is an imperfect site and I’m not planning to de-mod ToAS over the post removals and the way this escalated. If people are unhappy about that, I accept that a bunch of people might leave NG.

CrimsonKero

I'm sorry Tom, as much as I want to agree with you on most stances, to be honest, this does not spark confidence at all.

You acknowledge that Turkey had made multiple related decisions that were ultimately blunders on his end, but do you actually fault him, or let him go off with a slap on the wrist?
If not de-modding, then just tell him to tone down his actions.

You claim it's not "necessary" to have Ros's comic removed, but did you bother to reinstate it and apologize?

You acknowledge the moderation was being "heavy-handed", and that the site doesn't have good tools to remedy this, but what are you doing to make said tools more efficient, or more transparent? Because that's what the whole issue was about, not necessarily just Turkey doing an allegedly/potentially shit job. Not to mention there are times where modmail DOES exist, but a mod just chooses not to use it because of blowback (why does that exist).

You also seemed to have glossed over CC2000 and AKA1's scouting status. IMO relatively speaking, which even I admit could be related to their artistic skills, but it never seemed to be an issue until after Ros's comic dropped.

At least four people, myself included, tried to contact you about this situation.
The duo tried to contact other moderators such as ZJ, over a week before the callout (linked below), trying in vain to get them to address the problem. Not that they were owed any...
https://files.catbox.moe/6nhoa1.pdf

But I feel like you're just trying to place MORE blame onto Kittyhawk and AKA1 because they had a history of derailing threads (mind you, I was often at the center of these as well without nearly as much consequences), and now for amplifying the situation to the public, whilst downplaying the moderator's actions even when they were wrong.
KH hosted the Sweet Sixteen Comic contest, Pokemon Gijinka Collab, and was a judge on NG Jump, and you're just gonna throw her to the curb like that?

I made the comparison to Stonewall, because I believe they are more or less both protests fighting for a specific set of rights. in our case, the right to have a free discussion without fear of being erased.

I don't want to fight you Tom. You've done a lot to try and keep the site healthy for almost 30 years and I don't want to hurt that in any way. But it's been 2 years since the General/Politics closure, and as much as you want to avoid angry discourse, it inevitably will happen *because* on injustices like this one. Because it *is* a hot mess on the administrative side and believing everything you or the mods say won't change that.

Have any of the tools changed since General. Again, 2 years, and have you just let them stay stale and unfixed? I get "imperfect" but that really seems like the one thing they want fixed soon.

Bro-son

Holy crap Lois. They took down my porn on newgrounds. It’s just like the time the cops raided gay bars 50 years ago

bergmik

@CrimsonKero it's real long. shorter version?

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